TOSECdev Forum

TOSEC Project => TOSEC Naming Convention => Topic started by: Wanderer on April 29, 2015, 07:45:44 PM

Title: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Wanderer on April 29, 2015, 07:45:44 PM
Just downloaded TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf. I started browsing though its pages, just for the fun of it. Very nice work guys.

One question, as i accidentally noticed it: near the bottom of page 14, "For example: (es -pt) Contains Spanish and Portuguese versions", there is a space between "es" and the "-". Does it matter if there is a space there or it is a typo?
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Cassiel on May 22, 2015, 11:30:53 AM
Oooops... is a typo, this will be corrected next time.

Thanks for the heads up.
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Crashdisk on May 24, 2015, 01:11:33 PM
Small problem:
The flag "Pirated" is a source of problem for me. Different uses and not standardized in TOSEC does not help me.

Case for Amiga :

Original:
Kick Off 2 (1990)(Anco)

Hacked version:
Kick Off 2 - KOA Competition v0.62 (2005)(Camber, Steve)

How to use the Pirated flag?
 1) Kick Off 2 (1990)(Anco)[p Camber, Steve][Kick Off 2 - KOA Competition v0.62]
 2) Kick Off 2 - KOA Competition v0.62 (1990)(Anco)[p Camber, Steve]
 3) Kick Off 2 - KOA Competition v0.62 (2005)(Anco)[p Camber, Steve]
 4) Kick Off 2 - KOA Competition v0.62 (2005)(Camber, Steve)[p]
 5) Kick Off 2 - KOA Competition v0.62 (2005)(Camber, Steve)[p Camber, Steve]
 6) Other suggestion?
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: PandMonium on May 25, 2015, 05:24:00 PM
Unfortunately that's a known problem (and not exclusive to pirate flag) :(

Long ago i've raised the same question (not sure if with Cassiel or idoru) regarding the ton of hacks existent in NES for Mario Brothers. Lets see if we can improve the situation this time.

IMO it depends on the type and extensiveness of the modification. It would be good to standardize this as much as possible (to ensure some degree of consistence across dats).

In this case, is the game exactly the same (with a different logo, distributor name, or such), sold or distributed illegally under other name by Steve Camber? Is it an hacked version of the original Kick Off 2? The modifications are small such as title screen, team names or equipments?

I think that, depending on the answers I could go with either of your suggestions (esp. 1, 2 or 4). That's also one of the reasons why the [p] flag is rarely used.

As i said, something similar happens with Mario Bros, with a huge number of hacks that go from just extra lives or colors to completely different games (and titles). In those cases, when should we consider it a new game or a simple hack? What title to use and info to add in more info + h/p flags?  :-\

@Cassiel: this should be discussed / standardized...
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Crashdisk on May 26, 2015, 05:21:50 PM
Hi PandMonium,

First some information about the hack in question (based on Kick Off 2 (1990)(Anco) ):
http://hol.abime.net/5529

The changes are multiple, errors correction, playability, functionality, etc ..
incomplete changelog:
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20140220105445/http://www.ko-gathering.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kick_Off_2_competition_version

In this case as in the other, I think it is a new edition of an original game, not just a hack. Other examples:
http://hol.abime.net/hol_search.php?N_ref_license=13

Besides, with mai, we wondered if we had put the commercial game Atari ST converted for Amiga in the "Games DP" or the "Games (commercial)", knowing that they were never sold on Amiga...
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: PandMonium on May 26, 2015, 06:50:32 PM
I guess it really is a new game, built from the original KO. How to you feel it should be cataloged / renamed? Is it possible with TNC? :)
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Crashdisk on May 30, 2015, 09:16:31 AM
I will try this name, which is consistent with the TNC, but there is always something that bothers me...
Kick Off 2 - KOA Competition v0.62 (2005)(Anco)[p Camber, Steve]
what do you think?
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: PandMonium on June 01, 2015, 05:29:26 PM
Reasonable. Still, I share your opinion of it not being perfect. If the name was completely different it would be harder to know it was a Kick Off hack (couldn't it be marked with that too?).  Strictly, it is wrong since Anco didn't develop or published any title with that name in 2005 but none of the alternatives seem to be perfect.

Any other opinion?
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Cassiel on June 01, 2015, 06:36:11 PM
Normally what I do if its part of the same DAT is mark it as a hack [ h ] of the original (if its clearly based on an existing game rather than simply ripped sprites or whatever).

If its been converted to another system (and therefore diff DAT) I mark it as "name (date_of_bootleg_release)(bootlegger)" and any other dump flags such as languages + [ p ].
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: PandMonium on June 01, 2015, 09:15:18 PM
Out of curiosity, how would you name / catalog such a game:
If i took Kick Off for NES from 1989 by Anco and modify / update most of the sprites (field, balls, players, title screen), data (such as player names, teams, cups, etc) to represent the Portuguese league 2014 / 2015, releasing it in 2015 with the title "Liga Portuguesa de Futebol 2014/2015".

How would you call it? I'm just curious on what are other members' views about these cases.

I guess my best suggestion would be something like:
"Kick Off (1989)(Anco)[m PandMonium][Liga Portuguesa de Futebol 2014/2015]"

The original game named is Kick Off and that should be cataloged. However the game is now a bit different and the name of modifier, new date, new name and other aspects should be also present... somehow?

In the case of these guys (from wikipedia/Kick Off):
Quote
The Kick Off Association (K.O.A.) is a non-profit organization in 2001 as an umbrella organization for fans of the series.[23]
The Kick Off Association has approximately 1400 members. The KOA has been involved in the organizations of various international tournaments of Kick Off 2 and arrange a Kick Off 2 World Cup every year.
The KOA participates in the research and development of the new versions of Kick Off as Kick Off 2 competition version, Kick Off 2002 and Throw In. The testers for these games belong to the Kick Off Association.[24]
The 15th Kick Off 2 World cup is taking place in Dublin, Ireland on November 6 & 7 2015.Over 30 players from Ireland, England, Germany, Italy, Greece, Denmark, Spain, Norway, Austria and Sweden are expected

so I would expect them to produce a ton of modifications for NES Kick Off, and we will suffer from the same fate of Mario Bros in NES dat: "Mario Bros (yyyy)(publisher)[h2 to h9000]" :D
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: idrougge on June 22, 2015, 11:04:58 PM
I would go with the title on the title screen. The fact that it's based on Kick Off is of secondary interest.
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Crashdisk on June 30, 2015, 09:37:14 PM
I guess my best suggestion would be something like:
"Kick Off (1989)(Anco)[m PandMonium][Liga Portuguesa de Futebol 2014/2015]"
Your use of the [m] flag is surprising...

Quote from: TNC
Modified - [m]

The original software has been hacked/altered in some way (but not deliberately), e.g. if you dumped an original UNTOUCHED floppy disk (say it is a game for some microcomputer), the image would also be original/clean. If the floppy disk had been played/loaded (BUT NOT WRITE PROTECTED), then the disk might have an additional file saved back to it such as a saved game, or saved high score table. If you then re-dumped it, the image would no longer be original/clean, and a [m] flag would be appropriate.

The variants are:

[m] - Modified (general hack)
[m Modification] - Modification added
It seems to me that the [h] flag would be more suitable. no?!
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Cassiel on July 01, 2015, 11:59:49 AM
Agreed, [ m ] not really suitable.
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Crashdisk on July 01, 2015, 01:02:14 PM
Subtle suggestion for TNC  >:D
Quote
Hacked - [h]

The original software has been deliberately hacked/altered in some way, such as adding an intro or changing in game sprites or text.
The variants are:

 [h] - Hacked
 [h hack] – Description of hack
 [h Hacker] – Hacked by (group or person)
 [h hack Hacker] – Description of hack, followed by Hacker (group or person)


Modified - [m]

The original software has been hacked/altered in some way (but not deliberately), e.g. if you dumped an original UNTOUCHED floppy disk (say it is a game for some microcomputer), the image would also be original/clean. If the floppy disk had been played/loaded (BUT NOT WRITE PROTECTED), then the disk might have an additional file saved back to it such as a saved game, or saved high score table. If you then re-dumped it, the image would no longer be original/clean, and a [m] flag would be appropriate.
The variants are:

[m] - Modified (general hack)
[m modification] - Modification added

Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: PandMonium on July 01, 2015, 09:01:24 PM
Humm, that is a direct quote? Shouldn't the hack part have [h hack], instead of [f hack]. Maybe I'm missing something in TNC but I had only 4 hours of sleep today :P
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Crashdisk on July 01, 2015, 09:07:10 PM
Yes, it's a direct quote, I had not even seen ^^
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: PandMonium on July 01, 2015, 09:26:59 PM
I'm sure we can blame Cassiel for that! :D
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Cassiel on July 02, 2015, 12:30:15 PM
What I do?!  :)
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Crashdisk on July 02, 2015, 01:44:41 PM
Bigger is, less it shows ;-)
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: SG-1 Charpy on March 20, 2016, 01:07:13 PM
 ;D hi  i have just notice some errors in the TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf downloaded from the site.

Hacked - [h]
The original software has been deliberately hacked/altered in some way, such as adding an intro or changing in game sprites or text.
The variants are:
[h] - Hacked
TOSEC Naming Convention 01-01-2015
20
[f Hack] – Description of hack
[f Hacker] – Hacked by (group or person)
[f Hack Hacker] – Description of hack, followed by hacker (group or person)

all the date in the doc are bad.
For the hacker flag it's the same in the TOSEC Naming Convention web version
http://www.tosecdev.org/tosec-naming-convention (http://www.tosecdev.org/tosec-naming-convention)
 ^-^
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: PandMonium on April 14, 2016, 12:25:18 AM
Thanks! Fixed both pages (pdf+html). Will also do a few updates to the site's software.
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Kodoichi on May 18, 2017, 07:59:14 AM
I found some [FD installed] in the Amiga games database and couldn't find any explanation what it is. I guess it's FixDisk, a tool to fix disk errors?
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Crashdisk on May 18, 2017, 04:08:16 PM
This is a disk obtained by an installation process. Most of the time, it reduces the number of disks on the original distribution and it also allows to propose an installation on hard disk
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Kodoichi on May 18, 2017, 05:46:48 PM
Ah, I see. Lots of coverdisks used that method.

But should these disks even be listed in Tosec then, if they have an original, parent installer disk (unless they had a cracktro and other stuff added)? Basically they're just contributing to more [a]lternatives? On the other hand I understand that it's easier for us to play these games right away without creating the disks first.
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Kodoichi on November 06, 2017, 08:42:30 AM
I'm confused about the (PD) flag in the Amiga games public domain ADF database. It either makes no sense to me to flag the entries with (PD), as we already know from the database title, or it makes sense to differ between shareware and full public domain dedication. But then, some entries have a (PD) flag, others don't. Does that mean it's not clear what copyright status the latter have?
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Kodoichi on February 07, 2018, 09:30:32 PM
In the Amiga games database I came across the flags [b dump], [b baddump] and even [a baddump]. Do they all have the same meaning, is there a difference or are they wrongly flagged?

Edit: I also found some [m baddump].
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Kodoichi on October 13, 2021, 10:25:40 AM
I think my brain finally computed the difference between [b dump] and [m baddump]:
[b dump] is a faulty disk image.
[m baddump] means someone took that already faulty image and modified something on it. So basically it's an [a]lternative copy of the [b dump]. And read correctly, it would be [m bad dump] with a space inbetween?

All [b baddump] seem to have been cleaned/corrected to [m baddump], I still see a few [a baddump] though. Shouldn't they be [b2 dump]?

Another flag I now see is [a rebuilt]. What was rebuilt and who did that? Did someone take an alternative version of a disk image and reverted it back to match the original image?
Title: Re: About TOSEC Naming Convention 2015-03-23.pdf
Post by: Crashdisk on October 13, 2021, 07:26:59 PM
Hi Kodoichi,

for [b dump], it is mainly used to designate a defective NoDOS disk.
for [m baddump], it also refers to a defective NoDOS disk but with the particularity that no useful data is affected. So the disk is normally 100% functional.
for [a rebuilt], it is a disk whose content is the same (or almost) as other disks considered close to the original distribution.The difference is that the files have been placed in a blank disk (more or less fresh). This happens, for example, when reproducing a disk from an archive :
https://aminet.net/package/game/demo/ApexGolf

I hope it will be clearer now ;)