Author Topic: Publisher - Individual Person Names.  (Read 4738 times)

Offline Diaboł

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Publisher - Individual Person Names.
« on: August 23, 2010, 08:25:25 AM »
According to TNC "If individual person names need to be used, these should be entered in the format "Surname, First name" or "Surname, Initials"."

I work on a large set of TI software released by it's authors. Most of the time it's obvious which part of a name is a surname or a first name but I sometimes names are a bit exotic to me and I have no idea how to write the publisher flag correctly. Maybe you could help me with the following names:

Timothy Joseph
Ross Scott-Weekly
Nick Laszlo
Jp Nutter
Alex Sia
Li Fan
Martin Jason
Rusty Shackleford
Hamilton Boyce
Palsy Palooka
Daid Daid
Merlijn den Boer
Kiros Lionheart
Ewoud Nuyts
Reanrd  Guillaume
David Miranda
Bejarano Nestor Sancho
Thomas ten Cate
CJ Mihelich
Wash Basin
Vahram Avagian
Conget Ngan
Qwerty Piou
Borb Dull
Rasmus Öhrstig Bratt
Bobby Skeebo
Prashant Tatineni
Koen Stoop
Maarten 't Hart
S. Vander Giessen
Brad Leonard
Lue Her
Connor Gilbert
Thijs Urlings
Corbin Major
Daniels Headley

Some of the names above could be nicknames. I'm also not sure how to write names like : "Piers Titus Van der Torren". Is "Van der Torren, Piers Titus" correct? I'm just not sure what to do with this "Van der".



Offline PandMonium

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Re: Publisher - Individual Person Names.
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2010, 06:16:53 PM »
There are indeed some hard to separate names, maybe someone around can help you around with some. My experience tells me that the last word is used as the "surname" and the rest goes to the first name(s). This can be tricky in various languages like your example of "Piers Titus Van der Torren", portuguese names like "António Marques de Almeida" and others. I also remember gorski or gruby complaining about some east european names where supposedly the authors used to write the surname first and i think that some Asian cultures do the same (although they tend to invert it so occidentals get it right :P).

I guess you will need to wait for other opinions to solve your list, from those i guess i can solve:
Code: [Select]
David Miranda = Miranda, David
Bejarano Nestor Sancho = Sancho, Bejarano Nestor
The second is a bit strange, i'm not Spanish (Portuguese) and i've never seen Bejarano as a first name, maybe the author wrote it already inverted? I just googled by it and found some "Nestor Sancho Bejarano": http://www.sebyc.com/colegio_nsc_bejar/documentos/premios_recibidos_por_los_alumnos_del_centro.pdf
Quote
Néstor Sancho Bejarano: ganador Olimpiada Matemática a nivel regional.
Participa en Granada a nivel nacional y obtiene plaza para la prueba
internacional que se celebra en Rumanía.
which translates (+-) to:
Quote
Néstor Sancho Bejarano: Winner of the regional Mathematics Olympiads. Participates in the nationals at Granada and obtained a place on the international contest at Romania.

Maybe it's the same guy, connected to maths xD Anyway just wanted to show that in that spanish name, the correct form is probably:
Code: [Select]
Bejarano Nestor Sancho (is indeed) Nestor Sancho Bejarano = Bejarano, Nestor Sancho

Anyway, even if we are not 100% certain it is better to always use at least the last name and a comma, instead of not separating any of the names at all :)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 01:49:34 PM by PandMonium »

Offline TKaos

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Re: Publisher - Individual Person Names.
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2010, 10:05:15 AM »
I think it's
Fan, Li
Laszlo, Nick
den Boer, Merlijn
Mihelich, CJ
I'm only guessing, yet I'm almost sure they are like that.

Offline Diaboł

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Re: Publisher - Individual Person Names.
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2010, 11:13:46 AM »
Thanks guys! I'll wait a bit with this names. Maybe some other people can have a look at the list.

Offline Kodoichi

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Re: Publisher - Individual Person Names.
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2010, 05:56:46 PM »
Use an online phonebook :P

Merlijn den Boer
First: Merlijn
Last: den Boer

Reanrd  Guillaume
First: Guillaume
Last: Reanrd (Renard I guess)

S. Vander Giessen
Last: Van der Giessen I guess

Wash Basin
Basin Wash of course :P
Remember ROM Doctor?

Offline Diaboł

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Re: Publisher - Individual Person Names.
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2010, 06:02:57 PM »
Thanks Kodoichi. That last one wasn't very obvious to me ;D

Offline Cassiel

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Re: Publisher - Individual Person Names.
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2010, 03:45:54 PM »
“Wash Basin” is an actual name rather than a nickname/alias? Really…?

Somebody’s got some cruel parent(s) if that’s true….

Stranger things and all that, but you might want to double check that one.

Offline derJörg

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Re: Publisher - Individual Person Names.
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2010, 01:06:50 PM »
Some of the names above could be nicknames. I'm also not sure how to write names like : "Piers Titus Van der Torren". Is "Van der Torren, Piers Titus" correct? I'm just not sure what to do with this "Van der".
Hi,
...if Piers Titus is of dutch origin (which I think he is), then it has to be "van der Torren, Piers Titus" (lower case 'v' at the beginning). "van der", "von der", etc. are prefixes for last names, not actually part of the last name itself. This becomes important when name lists are to be sorted in alphabetical order by last name: in a telephone book with correct sorting you will find Piers in the section "T" (because of the last name being "Torren"), not in the section "V".

regards,
derJörg

Offline Diaboł

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Re: Publisher - Individual Person Names.
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2010, 01:20:54 PM »
derJörg Thx for the explanation! I'll keep that in mind!

Offline PandMonium

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Re: Publisher - Individual Person Names.
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2010, 04:14:43 PM »
Hey guys!
So, if in that case it is sorted by the last name, isn't it more logical to do "Torren, Piers Titus Van der"? It seems logical to me and seems to be what happens in the case you describe, i should look at a PT list to see how they solve similar cases too :)

Offline derJörg

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Re: Publisher - Individual Person Names.
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2010, 05:13:21 PM »
Hey guys!
So, if in that case it is sorted by the last name, isn't it more logical to do "Torren, Piers Titus Van der"? It seems logical to me and seems to be what happens in the case you describe, i should look at a PT list to see how they solve similar cases too :)
Hello,

...no, that solution is the most dirty one. It's easy to implement, but it's not logical and more important: it's simply wrong.

There is a clean solution, used where personal data has to be processed professionally. That is, you have to maintain more fields in the database: additional fields for middle name, last name prefix, second name, royal title, academic title, etc.
But I think this would be overkill in our scenario.

There is a quite easy solution that gives correct results, which you can also see in music databases like in Winamp. Let me give you an example, an excerpt from my list of artists, sorted by Winamp:
  • I...
  • Inner City
  • The Inner Space
  • In-Sist
  • I...
The String, built like <last name, first name> is left as it is (so "van der Torren, Piers Titus" remains himself), but the sorting algorithm has to know a list of last name prefixes and has to ignore them when sorting. That is quite easy to achieve, gives correct results and doesn't lead to problems when working with the data.

That problem is not restricted to dutch names, but affects names from many cultures. Think of Peter O'Toole, David McAllister, etc.

A list of such last name prefixes could look like this (maybe not complete):
  • aus dem
  • aus den
  • aus der
  • da
  • dalla
  • de
  • de los
  • degli
  • del
  • di
  • le
  • Mc
  • O'
  • van
  • van de
  • van den
  • van der
  • vom
  • vom und zum
  • von
  • von dem
  • von der
  • von und zu
  • zu
  • zum

regards,
derJörg
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 05:57:55 PM by derJörg »

Offline VG8020

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Re: Publisher - Individual Person Names.
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2010, 01:55:06 AM »
Hello Diabol and all,

Miranda, David
Sancho Bejarano, Nestor

Those look indeed like Spanish names. There's two surnames. Miranda's second surname is not listed.

Greetings,

(previously known as MSXfreak)

Offline PandMonium

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Re: Publisher - Individual Person Names.
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2010, 07:48:41 PM »
The 1st one could also be portuguese :P
As for my suggestion, i just said that because it is something doable. AFAIK identifying surnames is something really hard across countries / cultures, so i just suggested that it could be Last Name, Name since it is easier for renamers. Anyway your list of words seems quite complete and could be used, i don't know how it should be properly handled in these cases but i see you seem to know better. Maybe we should improve the TNC document on that part :)