Author Topic: TOSEC ISO - Amiga  (Read 6466 times)

Offline tomse

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TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« on: April 17, 2014, 01:36:04 PM »
I've been redirected here by Crashdisk (whom takes care of alot of Amiga TOSEC).

I'd like to help out in this section.
But I'd probably need some longer discussions with what gets added,

reading from an other post I take it is Aral with whom I need to discuss this with.



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Offline tomse

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2014, 07:10:30 PM »
bump
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Offline PandMonium

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2014, 08:00:29 PM »
Hi tomse,

I'm sorry that nobody replied yet and i'm not sure if I can help you much more with ISO information. AFAIK, TOSEC-ISO started not only has a cataloguing (datting) project for optical disc media but also a dumping project. Dumping discs has been a complex subject for long, with several groups proposing different methods (and claiming the "perfect" result) in addition to the old ripped versions. The iso section, maintained by idoru, had its own method used by dumpers such as Maddog (for Dreamcast), which submitted their work to create dats. Once, two copies of the same disc were dumped (and matched via md5) it was marked "good dump". With idoru and others gone as well other/newer dumping projects, that part almost stopped. Most of us that remain here are more interested in the cataloguing / datting existing software than dumping media.

That said, we are obviously interested in saving optical media too. We have had some talks and Cassiel (and others) even started adding a few extra ISOs I think. I'm not really the right person to help you on this but, do you have undumped media that is missing in our dats?

IMHO it should work just like the other branches, if there are unrenamed files they just need to be added to the right dats (or new dats) using the TNC names. The problem is deciding which dumping method to use. Ideally we would/should at least dat/use isos created with the best or "standard" method at the time or even add several. The main issues are the fact that this "standard" has been changing over time and is disputable. The previously dumped sets used our old method, if that is "perfect" for a specific system I don't see many reasons to just drop them. Other idea would be to just add several "formats" (obtained with different dumping methods), much like what happens in TOSEC main branch with disks et al. This creates some problems regarding size (having the same software in different formats) and if followed, should be done much more carefully than what happened in TOSEC, to avoid spreading a lot of uneeded roms and garbage.


Maybe your post can start a nice discussion about this, if we can get Cassiel, Aral, Maddog or anyone else willing to do so to discuss these ideas :)

Offline tomse

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 07:10:28 PM »
Thank you for the response PandMonium.

In my offer to help, I had 2 ways in mind.

Yes, I have CD's to dump/add which aren't in the DATs

But also help with the maintenance (when I get more experienced in the TOSEC naming, community etc) of the ISO part of the Amiga.
Or without stepping on someones toes, be the maintainer if there's the need.

I'm a total TOSEC noob, in the sense of naming, proper dumping etc, but I promise to do the best that I can.


To get in, on the discussion around which kind of format should be used.
There are, as you say, plenty of formats to choose from.
ISO might in the most cases just do it. But I've seen quite a few CD's on the Amiga that also contain sound tracks.
so a better format should be used.
cue/bin/wav could cover that which has been used a lot a decade ago.

but to follow the technology of the day, perhaps mds or mdx (generated by i.e. Daemon Tools for Windows) could be a good candidate, though I have no idea if there are any programs on MAC or *nix that can make that format, it ought to be multiplatform these days with more Linux and MAC computers see the light of the day.
The problem with mds / mdx is that it's limited to Daemon Tools, and perhaps a small selection of other tools, where ISO/BIN etc is a standard.

Of course if some of the other people already have some good options, I'm open.






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Offline PandMonium

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2014, 10:24:49 PM »
The TNC part is not a problem. Everyone is a noob before learning how to do it...
As for the ISO details, it is highly technical and I can't really help you with an informed opinion. Still, some good solutions would be to check if those discs were already dumped and which is the state of the art format to dump Amiga ISOs. Maybe someone over EAB can inform us about this. The goal would be to dump the discs using such knowledge and add them to their DBs and then properly name and dat that stuff in TOSEC-ISO collection.

Some ISO experts are needed here. Just dump the discs with some random process/tool is not the ideal way (still, if the disc is rare and dying having a backup in a good enough format would be nice).

Offline tomse

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2014, 07:07:24 AM »
The dumps I've seen for Amiga are somewhat mixed.
Some are ISO, but most are CUE/BIN/WAV, there are some other formats too (nero's nrg etc)

The CD's for Amiga are regular DATA and sometimes DATA/Audio (ISO9660 / Joliet).
I have yet to find any copy protected CD, and I don't think I'll see any, in which case ISO / CUE/BIN/WAV will do the trick.

But I'll see if EAB has some input.



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Offline Crashdisk

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2014, 01:27:32 PM »
The dumps I've seen for Amiga are somewhat mixed.
Some are ISO, but most are CUE/BIN/WAV, there are some other formats too (nero's nrg etc)
No, dumps are not mixed. All extractions are made ​​in ISO format (for Amiga). Other formats are homemade CD (digital distribution), the format has not been changed because it does not make sense to convert.

Offline tomse

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2014, 06:38:49 PM »
The dumps I've seen for Amiga are somewhat mixed.
Some are ISO, but most are CUE/BIN/WAV, there are some other formats too (nero's nrg etc)
No, dumps are not mixed. All extractions are made ​​in ISO format (for Amiga). Other formats are homemade CD (digital distribution), the format has not been changed because it does not make sense to convert.

I'm not talking about the ones in TOSEC, but the ones not in TOSEC, a good sample is what is on the EAB file server.
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Offline tomse

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2014, 09:17:40 AM »
With the limited but still useful info, both old and new dumping to cue/iso/wav seems to be the way to go.

old: https://web.archive.org/web/20060508111746/http://startaq.ath.cx:10080/wiki/guide
new: http://redump.org/guide/cddumping/

I'll start sorting through my stuff soon, so we can use that as a reference on naming, precedure for adding hash values etc.

So lets say I have already I already have some cumped ISOs and ready to hash them; I did a quick look what there are of tools, but didn't seem to find something that constructs the output format. (hashing to md5/sha1/crc isn't an issue here, but you might already have a tool for this?)
Also skimming through some of the sticky posts here in the forum I didn't see any posts how to upload these dat files.

and how is it about verification?  is it done by a second person with a second media on a second drive? or is it fine with a second media on a second drive?
(I have a stack of doublet CD's hence the question)


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Offline Maddog

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2014, 01:34:54 PM »
Uploading dats can be done by putting your stuff in a filehosting service and PM'ing the link to Cassiel, since he's the one responsible for final dat output usually. That's what I do with my Dreamcast stuff.

The old TOSEC ISO method is IMHO quite sufficient for Amiga CDs, since they contain no fancy protections or any other form of CD standard abuse.
The Redump method is used by the Redump group. Not willing to start much of a discussion about it, since there were endless wars over their perceived (and self-declared...) superiority, so I'll just say we currently don't have any discs in the dats that were dumped by Redump standards. And there is an even newer dumping method from the Trurip group.

As for verification, with the old TOSEC ISO method and rules it was allowed to add a data-only disc to the dats when dumped by a single person. This was not allowed for discs with CD Audio tracks, since these were proven to be rather more error-prone when dumped.
Verification was always a 2nd person, dumping a different disc (and not even knowing what were the "target" checksums that the other dumper had submitted, since those were never public). Somewhat strict, but we got our share of cheaters and just plain erroneous dumps and this was the only method we could think off, since noone could declare "verifying" something he hadn't actually dumped. Or even unwillingly dumped incorrectly for any reason (eg using wrong settings in EAC or a drive that didn't support overreading into leadout)

As for hashing, ClrMAME Pro does a good job for me.

Hope I have helped. :)

Offline tomse

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2014, 02:45:25 PM »
@Maddog you certainly have (helped), thanks :-)

The only concern I have are the gaps between audio tracks.
but I guess I'll have to make some tests with the different methods.
But that's only neccessary if/when I get to a mixed CD.



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Offline Crashdisk

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2014, 04:00:45 AM »
Below, the last method of extraction known by TOSEC :
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20100326210649/http://wiki.toseciso.org/guide
We should test the method with some discs CD32 which are already known and after the upgrade to the newest software...

Offline Maddog

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2014, 10:38:04 AM »
We should test the method with some discs CD32 which are already known and after the upgrade to the newest software...

Yes, sounds like a good idea.

Offline Cassiel

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2014, 11:37:30 AM »
Sounds like a good plan boys...  :)

Offline Cassiel

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Re: TOSEC ISO - Amiga
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2014, 11:39:29 AM »
Also, not sure if this is exactly the same ripping guide (revision) that archive.org brings back but:

http://www.tosecdev.org/forum/tosec-iso/cd-ripping-guide/